[Osx-nutters] AHMADINEJAD

[Jeffrey Hergan]

On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Patrick Coskren wrote:

> On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:22 AM, Jeffrey Hergan wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2006, at 4:02 AM, David Cake wrote:
>>
>>>> =. Try that in Iran/Saudi Arabia/North Korea/Cuba/any one of
>>>> dozens of other countries beloved of the Western liberal elite.
>>>
>>> 	I think this sentence clearly shows that Guys political rants  
>>> have headed into crack pipe territory. I mean, who really thinks  
>>> the Western Liberal elite love Saudi Arabia (which draws far more  
>>> support from a Western right wing elite who want its oil), or  
>>> North Korea?
>>
>> Well...I think there is clearly a cultural relativism thrust  
>> forward by the liberal elite, and liberals in general, that says  
>> (at least) "Don't judge them because we really ought to respect  
>> their culture regardless of the actions of the state (of Saudi  
>> Arabia or N. Korea) or some individuals within the state.
>
> That sentence is so broadly phrased that I don't know what you  
> mean.  Generally what I hear on the left is "don't hate them just  
> because they're Muslim".  That doesn't mean that criticisms of  
> specific acts, or of specific trends in Islam, are out of place.   
> It's entirely consistent to say, "beheading as a punishment for  
> marital infidelity is wrong" and, "a lot of these right-wingers are  
> just expressing their own religious bigotry".

OK.  I think I can be more clear.  There is nothing that Muslims  
could do to each other that left end liberals think would justify US  
intervention.

>
>> I wouldn't say those countries are 'beloved' but they certainly  
>> are poster children of the liberal elite, used in criticisms of  
>> the right wingers.
>
> This is the part that's just silly.  One of the biggest criticisms  
> used by liberals against the right wingers is that the Right is too  
> tied to Saudi Arabia and too foolish with regard to North Korea and  
> Iran.  That doesn't make those countries poster children in any way  
> shape or form.  "These countries are bad, and you're fucking up how  
> you deal with them", is not a "poster child" argument.

I don't think that's what the left says, though.  I hear arguments  
like: "The US is the worst offender with regard to nuclear arms, so  
we have no right to say anything to Iran or N Korea."  And "We should  
treat nations like Iran and N Korea as soveriegn countries worthy of  
respect, even if they plainly say that we are evil and should be  
eradicated like the infidel scum we are."

>   To even argue that liberals have a fondness for those countries  
> makes it sound like you're not listening to any actual liberals  
> (although I'm sure you can find a few extremists somewhere who'll  
> say anything).

And maybe this is exactly the problem.  The political list I frequent  
is pretty radically left.  Bush blew up the trade center, etc.

>
>> The right is quick to make ethical and moral judgments.  The left  
>> would withholds judgment.  That isn't love.  But it is unrealistic  
>> and idealistic in a world where those two traits are quite dangerous.
>
> You're not paying attention if you think the Left makes no moral  
> judgments.  It's just that they think morality is about something  
> different from what's in your pants and what religious figure you  
> pray to.  Typical liberal policies like universal health care,  
> vigorous diplomacy before engaging in war, economic equality, civil  
> rights, not torturing people, the right to a fair trial, etc, these  
> are all motivated by moral principles.  Even gay marriage, the  
> Right-wing electoral cudgel, is motivated by moral principles: it's  
> just that on the Left, we don't think morality is a matter of the  
> gender of who you love.  We think it's a matter of *standing by*  
> the person you love, and being able to do so.
>
> What the Right likes are simple, black-and-white moral judgments.   
> But the world isn't black and white.  It's like turning up the  
> contrast on your monitor (Universal Access control panel) all the  
> way, so all the colors are black or white.  You're not going to get  
> much done that way.

I think that may be true of some liberals.  But liberal liberals are  
a little more liberal with their non-judgmentalism than you judge  
them to be.

Jeff