[Osx-nutters] The separation of church and state.

[Mark Smith]

On 03.12.2007, at 15:05, Charles Bennett wrote:

> On Nov 30, 2007, at 7:52 PM, Mark Smith wrote:
>
>> On 30 Nov 2007, at 03:14, Matt Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> I admit there's a ruckuss in the media about creationism in Science
>>> over in the US but that's just in backward areas right?
>>
>> Be afraid, be very afraid. Creationists are infiltrating schools in
>> (at least) Denmark and Germany. There was a documentary from a
>> reliable film maker on one of the most conservative channels here in
>> Germany about this around 6 months ago.
>>
>> More recently, friends of ours reported that they were confronted  
>> with
>> creationist school teachers at an open day at a *primary* school here
>> in Berlin.
>
>
> So..  Just to be clear.  Your friends object to a Creationist  
> teacher being in a school where Islam may taught?


As is often the case, your narrow-mindedness and flippant acceptance  
of spin, prevents you from seeing the full picture.

Berlin's approach to islamic teaching is what we level-headed, non-gun- 
toting types call "progressive".

Berlin has an islamic population of around 1 million. It seems  
reasonable that those children who wish to receive islamic  
instruction, or (more likey)  the children of parents who want their  
kids to receive islamic instruction may receive it, without having to  
go to a separate school to get it.

To be clear, I'd like there to be no "intra-curricular" religious  
education of any kind whatsoever, but as long as some religious  
instruction is available in some schools, then other religions should  
receive the same rights. There should be no special treatment of any  
individual religion in this regard.

(Consider the history of the FSM to get the point if you are  
struggling.)

This available instruction is nominally extracurricular and non- 
compulsory. So nobody gets spoon-fed spin if neither they, nor their  
parents want to be part of it.

My original point was about creationists *masquerading* as moderate  
catholics and/or protestants and infiltrating catholic and evangelical  
schools[^1] in Germany and Denmark in order to subvert the teachings  
of science.

IOW a point that is not addressed in any shape, or form by your on-US- 
policy spin.

So... Just to be clear (as you are fond of typing), these are schools  
where islam generally won't be taught at all. They are schools to  
which children are sent to get a "normal" german education, in which  
creationists are subverting the curriculum.

The *science* curriculum ! That is compulsory, so there is no way to  
protect your kids from the brainwashing since they must take the class.

I dare say this *might* happen in schools where extracurricular islam  
is available if fundamentalists manage to sneak into positions that  
would allow this somehow.

I would vehemently object to *that* too.

There is a secondary issue here in that christian fundamentalists are  
using anti-islamic feeling to get traction and acceptance. You don't  
need to look far nowadays to find someone who is paranoid about islam  
and there is little chance of there being any kind of philosophical  
coup perpetrated by islamic fundamentalists in the west. The  
creationists on the other hand are far more dangerous in this regard.

I consider unrestricted, non-spun teaching of scientific method to be  
the best protection we can give our kids against *any and all* forms  
of fundamentalism. This is precisely what the creationists are  
undermining (clever actually - chipping away at the great bulk of  
method and knowledge that keeps fundamentalism in its dirty corner)  
and that is why I say be afraid, be very afraid.

Your are a blind fool if you think that there is any equivalence  
between mainstream non-fundamentalist islam and creationism. But  
that's not so surprising, you are living amongst tens of millions of  
like-minded retards.

I take solace in one fact. It doesn't matter how well the creationists  
do in Europe, they'll fuck up the US much faster, because its full of  
folks like yourself.

Mark.

[1]: These are partially stated-funded schools with top-up funding  
either by the catholic, or evangelical church. There is no  
denominational entrance policy and there is (at least theoretically),  
no directed religious instruction (unlike catholic schools in Scotland  
and Ireland). The point is that these schools are supposed to follow  
the national curriculum. This currently (and lets hope it stays that  
way) does not prescribe religious instruction of any kind (kids may  
receive it, if requested and it was the addition of islam to this  
offer that made the headlines you refer to) and includes science and  
evolution in particular. Maybe you are starting to slowly get the  
point ?