[Osx-nutters] The separation of church and state.

[Charles Bennett]

On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Mark Smith wrote:

>
> On 03.12.2007, at 15:05, Charles Bennett wrote:
>
>> On Nov 30, 2007, at 7:52 PM, Mark Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On 30 Nov 2007, at 03:14, Matt Johnston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I admit there's a ruckuss in the media about creationism in Science
>>>> over in the US but that's just in backward areas right?
>>>
>>> Be afraid, be very afraid. Creationists are infiltrating schools in
>>> (at least) Denmark and Germany. There was a documentary from a
>>> reliable film maker on one of the most conservative channels here in
>>> Germany about this around 6 months ago.
>>>
>>> More recently, friends of ours reported that they were confronted
>>> with
>>> creationist school teachers at an open day at a *primary* school  
>>> here
>>> in Berlin.
>>
>>
>> So..  Just to be clear.  Your friends object to a Creationist
>> teacher being in a school where Islam may taught?
>
>
> As is often the case, your narrow-mindedness and flippant acceptance
> of spin, prevents you from seeing the full picture.
>
> Berlin's approach to islamic teaching is what we level-headed, non- 
> gun-
> toting types call "progressive".


What we gun-toting atheist (man, there can't be tht many of us..)  
types call surrender.

>
>
> Berlin has an islamic population of around 1 million. It seems
> reasonable that those children who wish to receive islamic
> instruction, or (more likey)  the children of parents who want their
> kids to receive islamic instruction may receive it, without having to
> go to a separate school to get it.

I simply disagree.   They absolutely should have to go to another  
school.  I.E. a mosque or a madrases or even their own home.

By letting "the camel's nose under the tent" the next thing will be  
that non muslim children's behavior will be controlled as to not  
offend the Muslims.    Before long.   No pork in the cafeteria.

>
>
> To be clear, I'd like there to be no "intra-curricular" religious
> education of any kind whatsoever, but as long as some religious
> instruction is available in some schools, then other religions should
> receive the same rights. There should be no special treatment of any
> individual religion in this regard.
>

Then I guess we agree about the first part.     I just think that  
allowing it at all was a huge mistake
that comes back to bite you the moment some religion wants to see just  
how far they can take advantage of the law.

> (Consider the history of the FSM to get the point if you are
> struggling.)
>
> This available instruction is nominally extracurricular and non-
> compulsory. So nobody gets spoon-fed spin if neither they, nor their
> parents want to be part of it.
>


> My original point was about creationists *masquerading* as moderate
> catholics and/or protestants and infiltrating catholic and evangelical
> schools[^1] in Germany and Denmark in order to subvert the teachings
> of science.
>
> IOW a point that is not addressed in any shape, or form by your on-US-
> policy spin.
>
> So... Just to be clear (as you are fond of typing), these are schools
> where islam generally won't be taught at all. They are schools to
> which children are sent to get a "normal" german education, in which
> creationists are subverting the curriculum.
>
> The *science* curriculum ! That is compulsory, so there is no way to
> protect your kids from the brainwashing since they must take the  
> class.

Oh I agree that is is 'extra' bad that it gets slipped in under the  
name of science.

Here anyway, there is a way to protect you children from it.  You just  
have to be willing to get involved
at your local school and hold them accountable.

>
>
> I dare say this *might* happen in schools where extracurricular islam
> is available if fundamentalists manage to sneak into positions that
> would allow this somehow.
>
> I would vehemently object to *that* too.
>
> There is a secondary issue here in that christian fundamentalists are
> using anti-islamic feeling to get traction and acceptance. You don't
> need to look far nowadays to find someone who is paranoid about islam

and rightly so.

>
> and there is little chance of there being any kind of philosophical
> coup perpetrated by islamic fundamentalists in the west. The
> creationists on the other hand are far more dangerous in this regard.

I see your point here.   At least Islam is out front about the  
intentions.

>
>
> I consider unrestricted, non-spun teaching of scientific method to be
> the best protection we can give our kids against *any and all* forms
> of fundamentalism.

Me too.

> This is precisely what the creationists are
> undermining (clever actually - chipping away at the great bulk of
> method and knowledge that keeps fundamentalism in its dirty corner)
> and that is why I say be afraid, be very afraid.

They are not winning.   Sure you find a school board here and there,  
but those make the news and even the locals understand they are  
bringing ridicule upon themselves from the national media.

If it gets challenged in the courts the Creationists almost always lose.

>
>
> Your are a blind fool if you think that there is any equivalence
> between mainstream non-fundamentalist islam and creationism. But
> that's not so surprising, you are living amongst tens of millions of
> like-minded retards.
>

The "equivalence " is that they are both taking a viral approach to  
getting their message injected' into the system.
The difference is, at least for the moment, the Creationists are not  
being invited in, the Islamists are.

I'll let the ad-hominem part pass.

mainstream non-fundamentalist islam..  Interesting concept.   I guess  
they are silent ones that stay indoors while France burns
and thousands march calling for the murder of a woman for naming a  
fricking Teddy Bear..

I saw some estimates that more than one hundred thousand people  
marched is Saudi Arabia.  That's an awful lot of Wahbi fundamentalist  
islam folks and they DO tend to immigrate.

What I find mildly amusing is that the "progressives" that embrace a  
tolerance for this will be the first to go under Islamic law.

I think it was a 'progressive' Swedish politician who said that Swedes  
should be "nice to Muslims while we are in the majority so that when  
they are in the majority they will be nice to us"


> I take solace in one fact. It doesn't matter how well the creationists
> do in Europe, they'll fuck up the US much faster, because its full of
> folks like yourself.

Huh?   I assure you that as an atheist, I'm on the front line against  
them or any theory that is not falsifiable being taught as fact in a  
science class.

We, at least, don't willingly invite ANY religious instruction into a  
public school.

You seem to think it's reasonable that Germany does.

Guess which one will lead to trouble more quickly?

=c=