[Osx-nutters] The separation of church and state.

[Stefano Mori]

On 2007-Dec-04, at 16:51, José Trejos wrote:

> There is religious fundamentalism and there are many other kinds of
> religious spirituality.


Yes, quite right, and Mark had to add "hocus-pocus" to make the  
statement.

If a spiritual or religious institution says, "abstain from  
intercourse until you are adult and your life will go better", then  
that is a testable hypothesis to a degree. So long as people are open  
to questioning that injunction, the testing it, and modifying it, then  
that's rational. It's on the level of, I've got indigestion, what did  
I eat that's made me sick? It's examining our own experience with a  
rational mind.

But if I recall right, Mark tends to say that any rational moral  
injunction is almost by definition not religious?

I mean, I agree we need to resist fundamentalist irrational dogma in  
adulthood, and unfortunately there's just so much crap in most if not  
all religious institutions that we end up simply dismissing them point  
blank.




> Many scientists are members of different
> religions, of course no true scientist can be a fundamentalist of any
> religion. Many religious beliefs can coexist with scientific
> knowledge. The existence of "a supreme being" that some call God is
> not necessary for science but can not be either proved or disproved
> scientifically. Atheism is actually a kind of fundamentalism. No
> rational human can be atheist. Atheism is dogmatic and irrational.


Well, I'd add that in a way it is, in the sense that it's a worldview-- 
it's the glasses you're looking through--it's a pervasive take on  
life. Once you awaken to being rational above all, then there's not  
really a choice about it any more, you simply stick to rationality,  
and that's good. You don't think, well, maybe I should try the  
alternative, be irrational, for a day, just to balance things.

But within that, it can be said that Atheism is the rational level  
answer to spirituality. Being rational is being spiritual in the sense  
that, when someone asks, what's of ultimate value? what's the best way  
to be? how should I live my life? what ideals should I aspire to? the  
answer to those questions involves, whatever you  do, be rational  
about it.


>
> jt
>
> On Dec 4, 2007, at 8:53 AM, Mark Smith wrote:
>
>> it is not
>> possible to be a true scientist *and* to truly believe in any
>> religious hocus-pocus.